Brexit stuff.

[vorsprung durch technik]

Originally Posted by vorsprung durch technik

Surely you must know that Holland is on the cusp of leaving

Qouting from post 72 backing up the above and an interesting tale of someone living in Holland.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...4WF_rmEs9Orxrt

[vorsprung durch technik]

For those not on fb the photo of above holding the text. Click on yellow bar at top of photo for enlargement.

[vorsprung durch technik]

I know it's nearly Christmas but this isn't going to go away.

Superbly well said that lady!!

https://youtu.be/NS45-1CRtdM

[Duffy3074]

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-...-poll-results/

Various polls in here make for interesting reading.

[Duffy3074]

[Steev]

In my humble opinion....

The vote was a crock, cos the question was a crock.
The answer was not compulsory, only advisory.

It seemed only to become compulsory when it went Brexit......despite Scotland, despite Wales, despite Northern Ireland who all voted to stay in europe

So essentially it is an English decision. But based on what?

No reasonable discussion was allowed by the press

As a Bremainer you "invoked" Project Fear, end of your argument....no one listened or read your argument beyond that.

As a Brexiteer you were a patriot, everyone knows what that means, no real need to expand your discussion, we all know what that means, you must be a real Mogg!

At no point did anyone label Brexit arguments LA LA LAND

No Need

All Brexit arguements were essentially Dog in the manger. Nothing creative or positive, just tear down the opposing argument until everyone nods.

But two years down the line STILL, neither bunch of pratts can say definitively what will happen.

So looking back two years, if we don't know now what will happen, how the fcuk could anyone make a reasoned decision to leave based on "facts" that had yet to established??

I'm a buyer of 40 years standing, from a simple negotiating standpoint, even I could see that signing Article 50 would put us on a conveyor belt that we would drop off the edge after two years with no deal. The EU had to do nothing. In a commercial scenario, that is known as deadlining, all buyers seek to own the deadline over the seller. in this we were piss poor to be honest.

Dropping off the conveyor is pretty much what is going to happen.

UNLESS SOMEONE, in Westminster, grows a pair of balls.

Unlikely as it seems Theresa May is probably the only one that could do that

Under Article 50 either have a deal or we don't.

Ergo as we don't have a deal, all reasonable people seem to agree "No Deal" is bad.

The only solution in the face of such uncertainty is to reverse Article 50.

The effect allows the status quo to exist, that is no biggie, we know what we are dealing with in that event.

But in truth that action allows unlimited time to negotiate meaningfully about Brexit.

I travel Europe as part of my job, and it's not perfect by any means, but it's shed load better than 40 years ago.

We need to be in there shaping it into something that we can all live with.

So, modify the Human Rights Act, modifiy the powers of the supreme court,modify the free movement of people, modify the FCUK out of it.

Tearing the UK apart with binary choice is no the way forward. In thirty years we'll be knocking on their door again, mark my words.

The binary choice was originally a Conservative party choice and no matter how much they deny it, this whole exercise was aimed at healing their divide.

Cameron is a a political tosser...of a coin.
Corbyn is just a tosser

Personally I would rather sacrifice that particular party than my country. Everything they are doing is not Unionist to either Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland or even England for that matter. It is Partisan, self interest, survival of the party in Westminster.

Reading this, a Brexiteer will label my rant as Bremainer Fear or nonsense. ( see nothing constructive)

My answer is. It took 40 odd years to get where we are, if we have to leave, why cant it take longer that two years, to make sure we are doing the right thing?

And ONE final thing!!!

When did we ever have a vote on, or have a referendum on, HS2?

THE WESTMINSTER TRAINSET

The costs of that make the purported savings of Brexit look like chickenfeed.

The whole project is pointless as it is destructive and will split the country in two just like Brexit,.

Except this divide will be labelled London and Not London.

That's part of the reason Osborne championed the "Northern Powerhouse", now he's gone, where's that now? Oh yes! Westminster Trainset

Rant over

[EvoMalc]

I have read through his thread with interest (I do like the cake and eggs post).
My opinion is that the whole issue/decision is an emotional one, which back in 2016 was a way for "ordinary" folk to stick two fingers up to the government of the day, or rather the establishment. Remember we were (are?) still in the world of recession politics and policies. For somebody trying to make ends meet in a place outside the south east the campaign on both sides was fought as if it was a general election.... People looked at "local" issues, jobs, immigration, NHS provision etc.
I also note there has been mention of Scottish independence, well again it is an emotional issue rather than one based on facts and figures (Yes I know facts and figures have been produced on both sides of the argument). I did ask a very good friend who is very pro independence
Me:"What happens the day after?"
Friend:"Oh well the SNP job is over so we can vote them out"
Me: "So no chance of having a total reform of the current system, say like having a written constitution as per the USA?"
Friend:"Er well that can be sorted out later"
Me: "So basically we end up with the same bureaucracy, establishment, and problems but no longer being able to blame Westminster?"
Friend: "Well at least we would be Independent"
Me: "What another pint?"

Whatever your opinion on the matter the result is a more divided and decisive society, much the same as the US with Trump.
Just my tuppence worth

[SorenR]

DO NOT look to USA for answers! USA is slowly becoming a modern version of North Korea with DJT as their "supreme commander". The "carrot" cannot differentiate truth from a lie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uz19w7tf1U

It has been downhill for the entire world ever since they banned punishment by "the cane" in school. This whole Generation Snowflake and political correctness deal is making me want to puke. If life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

Oh, and from one EU citizen to another - sorry to see you go but hey, it's your choice. You have to live with the consequences. Democracy victors.

Just a bit of advice... Get rid of Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland now you have the chance. They'll be nothing but trouble in the future ...

And... Hey... NSA/CIA/KGB! IF you are reading this - I will NEVER visit your crappy country ever again so no point in putting me on the visa blacklist BTDT got the T-shirt.

[vorsprung durch technik]

4v6, i've typed the same thing you've done in the past in this instance comment by Steev ie; taken each line or most lines and answered it but i just cant be bothered at the moment to waste loads of time in doing it properly like you have done in the past.

So hear goes you will be able to work out what are Steev words and mine.

Originally Posted by Steev

In my humble opinion....



It seemed only to become compulsory when it went Brexit......despite Scotland, despite Wales, despite Northern Ireland who all voted to stay in europe

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VDT
Erm, wales voted to leave.

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So essentially it is an English decision. But based on what?

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VDT
Based on the fact that it's England by a massive overwhelming majority paying the Eu bill of 19 Billion pounds a year to brussels. Based on the fact that the uk is made up of 65 million people of which England makes up 55 million the other 10 million is spread between Wales, Scotland and Norther Ireland.

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No reasonable discussion was allowed by the press

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VDT
The press are not reasonable, do you still believe the press? i don't they're in the pockets of the Rothchilds, George Sorros's of this world etc etc.


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As a Bremainer you "invoked" Project Fear, end of your argument....no one listened or read your argument beyond that.


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VDT
That was all the Remainers had in their argument, When someone starts desperately ranting and raving to me that i must do this or that i smell a rat and in this instance the rats were desperate and tried all the underhanded tricks in the book to scare the little people into subservience! That's why we want out, we joined a football club in 75 and Europe a few years down the line started to play Golf! You should get that analogy. In other words we were lied to from the vert start!


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As a Brexiteer you were a patriot, everyone knows what that means, no real need to expand your discussion, we all know what that means, you must be a real Mogg!


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VDT
Oh you mean right wing?! No, although i can see the correlation of German dominance in Europe and their expansionist agenda via the Eu.

Whats wrong in making our own laws to suit ourselves instead of paying into a club that tells us what to do? I suppose if you like to be bossed around you'll find that agreeable i don't.


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At no point did anyone label Brexit arguments LA LA LAND


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VDT
No Need to.


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All Brexit arguements were essentially Dog in the manger. Nothing creative or positive, just tear down the opposing argument until everyone nods.


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VDT
In fact the complete opposite to your statement there happened. The Brexitiers won because they were positive about this great nations future, all the negativity was from the Remainers side of the Argument. I'm staring to wonder where you have been all this time?


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But two years down the line STILL, neither bunch of pratts can say definitively what will happen.



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VDT
Because Parliament is full of traitors! Their constituents voted to leave but the very MP's the people sent there have other ideas nests to feather etc etc. Many of these traitors campaigned to leave and were voted in for that reason in 2017. For example, Sarah Wollaston of Totness has changed her mind and wants to stay in but here constituents now want to deselect her because she's not respecting the majority vote that put her in parliament and what she campaigned on to leave the EU. Simples. There are lots of MP's like that. Incidentally Neil Kinnock was a failed politician, remember him? Well He and his wife are in the payrol of the eu to the tune 1 million pounds a year! And notice his son is now in politics and is campaigning for another vote. He also knows where his bread is buttered if he fails.


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So looking back two years, if we don't know now what will happen, how the fcuk could anyone make a reasoned decision to leave based on "facts" that had yet to established??


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VDT
The little people didn't buy the Apocaliptic end of the world that the remainers told us were facts, non of which happened. Anyone could see through that sh*te.



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I'm a buyer of 40 years standing, from a simple negotiating standpoint, even I could see that signing Article 50 would put us on a conveyor belt that we would drop off the edge after two years with no deal. The EU had to do nothing. In a commercial scenario, that is known as deadlining, all buyers seek to own the deadline over the seller. in this we were piss poor to be honest.

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VDT
I was a buyer too once upon a time and i agree with you about deadlining, and that rams home Brexitiers main reason to want to leave in the first place, the Eu have proven yet again what a dictatorial lot they are taking full advantage and made the Uk look weak. Would you allow your wife to stitch you up in a divorce settlement?

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Dropping off the conveyor is pretty much what is going to happen.


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VDT
If it comes to that it will be the EU's fault and nothing to fear imo, they then will have take the UK seriously!! And move extremely sharpish to protect all their interests ie; making sure all german cars are delivered here on time don't you worry. The uk is their biggest customer in Europe. When cameron went to Brussels to ask for mere crumbs, the Eu said NO! Oliver Twist springs to mind. And we all know which side the viewers were on in that film. The Eu will never listen. Barnier has proven to be an excellent champion of the old Third Reich in the way he strode around metaphorically wearing his jack boots during the negotiations! His brief with the other 27 was no negotiation, we want 39 billion before we even discuss trade talks. So Barneir held a shotgun to the UK pay up before we even move onto trade talks. Even you as a buyer know these tactics are completely unreasonable! Example, Before we discuss unit prices per 100's 1000, 10,000, 100,000 we want you to pay up 39 billion before we will discuss terms. The Eu can go itself!


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UNLESS SOMEONE, in Westminster, grows a pair of balls.

Unlikely as it seems Theresa May is probably the only one that could do that

Under Article 50 either have a deal or we don't.


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VDT
The Eu made that rule, it's in the treaty and they've exploited ruthlessly! Playing a game of brinkmanship/chicken as they think we're weak.

Ergo as we don't have a deal, all reasonable people seem to agree "No Deal" is bad.

The only solution in the face of such uncertainty is to reverse Article 50.


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VDT
Not a good way to negotiate with anyone.


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The effect allows the status quo to exist, that is no biggie, we know what we are dealing with in that event.


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VDT
And how does that respect democracy?


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But in truth that action allows unlimited time to negotiate meaningfully about Brexit.


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VDT
Oh you mean onto the slippery slope of grinding everyone's resolve down in the Uk into submission.Not me and the 17.4 million Brexitiers.


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I travel Europe as part of my job, and it's not perfect by any means, but it's shed load better than 40 years ago.

We need to be in there shaping it into something that we can all live with.


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VDT
We tried that, and they refused to listen. We the English are very different. When the Scots and Welsh wanted their own parliaments Westminster listened and said no problem.


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So, modify the Human Rights Act, modifiy the powers of the supreme court,modify the free movement of people, modify the FCUK out of it.


Tearing the UK apart with binary choice is no the way forward. In thirty years we'll be knocking on their door again, mark my words.

The binary choice was originally a Conservative party choice and no matter how much they deny it, this whole exercise was aimed at healing their divide.


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VDT
Partly agreed on that one, but Cameron was running scared of Ukip making huge gains in polling so to fend them of offered a referendum in the 2015 election. Don't forget both the labour Party and the Conservatives campaigned in their manifestos to leave the eu in the snap 2017 election.


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Cameron is a a political tosser...of a coin.
Corbyn is just a tosser


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Absolutely couldn't agree more!


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Personally I would rather sacrifice that particular party than my country. Everything they are doing is not Unionist to either Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland or even England for that matter. It is Partisan, self interest, survival of the party in Westminster.


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VDT
The Labour party are just as divided! Both parties Lab and Con honoured the leave vote in the snap 2017 election which 85% of the electrate voted for. A resounding vote wouldn't you say?


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Reading this, a Brexiteer will label my rant as Bremainer Fear or nonsense. ( see nothing constructive)


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VDT
I don't see it as a rant at all, it's your opinion everyone is entitled to it but one needs to be able to back up what they're saying, i just don't agree with you along with the majority 17.4 Billion voters.


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My answer is. It took 40 odd years to get where we are, if we have to leave, why cant it take longer that two years, to make sure we are doing the right thing?


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VDT
Shall we start to have general elections where if the opposition doesn't like what the government is doing the following year cry wolf and say put us lot in. That just leads to anarchy and chaos.


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And ONE final thing!!!

When did we ever have a vote on, or have a referendum on, HS2?

THE WESTMINSTER TRAINSET


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VDT
The conservatives while in opposition in the nineties said that the Millennium dome was a waste of money and were proved wrong. The Cons said Labour bidding for the 2012 Olympics was a waste of money and look what a triumph that turned out to be.


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The costs of that make the purported savings of Brexit look like chickenfeed.

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VDT
Latest estimate seams to be around 80 billion according to the IPA report. This country that brought the world the train now lags way behind the rest of the world and it's about time we bring ourselves back into the Premier league where trains are concerned.

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The whole project is pointless as it is destructive and will split the country in two just like Brexit,.


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VDT
Pardon
Is that a scare tactic? When the Scotts start building their part of it down to Leeds it will run all the way up. Win win


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Except this divide will be labelled London and Not London.


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VDT
London would have expanded an awful long way up to Leeds then.


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That's part of the reason Osborne championed the "Northern Powerhouse", now he's gone, where's that now? Oh yes! Westminster Trainset


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VDT
That was Boy George as i prefer to call him trying to gain Northern votes to eat into Labour heartlands sending more conservative MP's to Westminster.


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Rant over

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VDT
Phew,......

[Ringmaster]

I don't think the EU can be reformed from within as things stand, so far individual states tend to be granted opt outs to appease their respective electorates, such as the UK not signing up to Schengen, but the main EU policy continues to press on.

If only it had remained as the EEC..........