alloy quattro engine

a1quattro · 25-07-13, 10:00 PM

i know these a rare , but they do turn up from time to time, normaly fitted to a few random audis around 1983 . i want [must have] one for my rally quattro please help ,even if you know someone who owns a block , asap ray

SteveT63 · 25-07-13, 10:19 PM

I'm afraid you and quite a few others are in the same boat. When they do come up, they change hands in the dark, probably under the watchful eye of security guards and in total silence!! Only when the deal is done, is it made public!!

Don't forget it was money no object and these engines were generally stripped and rebuilt after each event, they weren't designed for longevity, just to try and eradicate the under steer issue I fancy.
They didn't last 5 minutes in road cars, audi were replacing them under warranty with 20000miles on or less. Nice if you already have one and I don't know if you have a works factory car that you want to remain authentic, or are building a RRRRRRRep, either way, I wouldn't hold your breath whilst you are searching.

LYT4X · 25-07-13, 11:05 PM

Some customers didn't know they had an alloy block. Some never even noticed that the block was changed when their car was put in for a routine service. The dealers were told to do the engine swap without informing the customer if possible.

kosoh · 26-07-13, 02:03 AM

Been looking worldwide now for 3 years for one without success. One popped up for a couple of hours on a Dutch rally site earlier this year. It was knackered but still went in hours at a price that was unbelievable. Best of luck in your search, there are a couple in the UK that I know of but you would have to "pry them from these dead cold hands" was what I heard. Best of luck in your search, if you find two, keep us in mind.
Restoring or rebuilding??? cos still looking for parts for my works rebuild...
Cheers

john johnson · 26-07-13, 05:58 AM

The ones I know of are still in Urs and the owners know what they are and are staying with the cars , you may have a bit of look with any other audis but still a long shot

4v6 · 26-07-13, 07:20 AM

For what youd pay for a second hand one of those you could possibly get a new casting made or a cnc machined block copied from a cast iron one surely?

Eddy · 26-07-13, 07:31 AM

Why was the life expencency of the ally block so short ?
Was it just a case of un-efficeint cooling so Audi thought it would be cheaper just to stick with Iron ???

The rover K series can last well (will a proper head gasket) and that was designed in Birmingham !

Roger Galvin · 26-07-13, 07:37 AM

Audi fitted 200 road going quattro with the 'Alloy' block, all within the 1983 model year, i.e. D chassis. As far as I am aware there is no record of which chassis actually received these engines. Customers were not advised at the point of sale that the particular example that they were buying had an alloy block. Audi anticipated that the engine would last 60,000 miles and instructed the dealers that the short engine was to be changed FOC at that mileage. Obviously some cars never got to that mileage due to heads and turbos wearing out prior to that mileage, others were used so little that by the time they got anywhere near 60,000 they had fallen out of the dealer franchise.

I have tried previously to rescue an alloy engine for a client but unfortunately he had allowed a glaswegian canibal to rebuild it for him. The matter featured some years back in the qOC newsletter concerning the trials and tribulations, but eventually it all ended up in the Law Courts. I put a short steel engine bought direct from Audi into the car (which is what I told him to do in the first place) and as far as I am aware the car is still going strong.

For authenticity I understand why a rally evocation might be desirable but for a road car I think the effort and cost implications required to get a result is utterly pointless.

Phil Jameson · 26-07-13, 08:40 AM

I'm pretty sure that the weight saving was 22kg which may not seem much but given its position in relation to the front axle would have been noticeable.
I know Roger has had considerable experience on this matter as seen in his previous post on here.

Roger Galvin · 26-07-13, 10:44 AM

Picking up on Eddy's point as to why life expectancy was so short I believe that Audi made the steel liners as thin as possible, in the order of 30 thou, so as to keep as much alloy in the engine and a little (heavy) steel as possible. Having dismantled dozens of WR engines over the last few years lateral bore wear often approaches 30 thou at around 80-90K, dependent obviously on the regularity of servicing (oil changes) and the manner in which the car is (ab)used. Audi thought they were playing safe by changing them at 60K however, failed cooler pipes, knackered valve guides and/or turbos, broken manifolds etc etc and any other well known achilles heel of quattros might have been sufficient to make it sensible for the dealer to change the engine prior to 60K.

One has to remember that Audi were also on a learning curve, they originally only intended building the 400 required for homologation. They had not done the extensive high mileage durability testing that a modern is now subjected to. In 1980 people were used to a car being knackered by 100,000 miles and throwing it away due to it rotting away before their eyes. You need to remember that cars such as the Mini Metro hadn't been launched when Audi stunned the world with its computer controlled, four wheel driven, turbo intercooled, fuel injected monster. Compare one to a modern and it is diminutive in proportion, yet in 1980 it was a relatively large car

25-07-13, 10:19 PM	#2
SteveT63 Senior Member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,045	I'm afraid you and quite a few others are in the same boat. When they do come up, they change hands in the dark, probably under the watchful eye of security guards and in total silence!! Only when the deal is done, is it made public!! Don't forget it was money no object and these engines were generally stripped and rebuilt after each event, they weren't designed for longevity, just to try and eradicate the under steer issue I fancy. They didn't last 5 minutes in road cars, audi were replacing them under warranty with 20000miles on or less. Nice if you already have one and I don't know if you have a works factory car that you want to remain authentic, or are building a RRRRRRRep, either way, I wouldn't hold your breath whilst you are searching. __________________ Peace...........through superior acceleration! T85 1985 90quattro I5 20vT T81 1983 80 Sport Red T81 1983 80 Sport Silver

25-07-13, 11:05 PM	#3
LYT4X Younger than JJ ! Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Aberdeenshire Posts: 651	Some customers didn't know they had an alloy block. Some never even noticed that the block was changed when their car was put in for a routine service. The dealers were told to do the engine swap without informing the customer if possible. __________________ ________ John

26-07-13, 05:58 AM	#5
john johnson Moderator of sausages Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: sheffield Posts: 13,331	The ones I know of are still in Urs and the owners know what they are and are staying with the cars , you may have a bit of look with any other audis but still a long shot __________________ Mr OCD http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t144/jsquatts/ Daily rs4 b7 with buckets that play havoc with my piles And if you are reading this as James may would say ' you're a cock '

26-07-13, 07:37 AM	#8
Roger Galvin Grown up member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 239	Audi fitted 200 road going quattro with the 'Alloy' block, all within the 1983 model year, i.e. D chassis. As far as I am aware there is no record of which chassis actually received these engines. Customers were not advised at the point of sale that the particular example that they were buying had an alloy block. Audi anticipated that the engine would last 60,000 miles and instructed the dealers that the short engine was to be changed FOC at that mileage. Obviously some cars never got to that mileage due to heads and turbos wearing out prior to that mileage, others were used so little that by the time they got anywhere near 60,000 they had fallen out of the dealer franchise. I have tried previously to rescue an alloy engine for a client but unfortunately he had allowed a glaswegian canibal to rebuild it for him. The matter featured some years back in the qOC newsletter concerning the trials and tribulations, but eventually it all ended up in the Law Courts. I put a short steel engine bought direct from Audi into the car (which is what I told him to do in the first place) and as far as I am aware the car is still going strong. For authenticity I understand why a rally evocation might be desirable but for a road car I think the effort and cost implications required to get a result is utterly pointless. __________________ Roger Galvin Chairman & Technical Secretary, qOC quattro Workshop

26-07-13, 10:44 AM	#10
Roger Galvin Grown up member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 239	Picking up on Eddy's point as to why life expectancy was so short I believe that Audi made the steel liners as thin as possible, in the order of 30 thou, so as to keep as much alloy in the engine and a little (heavy) steel as possible. Having dismantled dozens of WR engines over the last few years lateral bore wear often approaches 30 thou at around 80-90K, dependent obviously on the regularity of servicing (oil changes) and the manner in which the car is (ab)used. Audi thought they were playing safe by changing them at 60K however, failed cooler pipes, knackered valve guides and/or turbos, broken manifolds etc etc and any other well known achilles heel of quattros might have been sufficient to make it sensible for the dealer to change the engine prior to 60K. One has to remember that Audi were also on a learning curve, they originally only intended building the 400 required for homologation. They had not done the extensive high mileage durability testing that a modern is now subjected to. In 1980 people were used to a car being knackered by 100,000 miles and throwing it away due to it rotting away before their eyes. You need to remember that cars such as the Mini Metro hadn't been launched when Audi stunned the world with its computer controlled, four wheel driven, turbo intercooled, fuel injected monster. Compare one to a modern and it is diminutive in proportion, yet in 1980 it was a relatively large car __________________ Roger Galvin Chairman & Technical Secretary, qOC quattro Workshop

26-07-13, 02:03 AM	#4
kosoh Grown up member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 108	Been looking worldwide now for 3 years for one without success. One popped up for a couple of hours on a Dutch rally site earlier this year. It was knackered but still went in hours at a price that was unbelievable. Best of luck in your search, there are a couple in the UK that I know of but you would have to "pry them from these dead cold hands" was what I heard. Best of luck in your search, if you find two, keep us in mind. Restoring or rebuilding??? cos still looking for parts for my works rebuild... Cheers

26-07-13, 07:20 AM	#6
4v6 Ex Member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,565	For what youd pay for a second hand one of those you could possibly get a new casting made or a cnc machined block copied from a cast iron one surely?

26-07-13, 07:31 AM	#7
Eddy Grown up member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Glasgow Posts: 904	Why was the life expencency of the ally block so short ? Was it just a case of un-efficeint cooling so Audi thought it would be cheaper just to stick with Iron ??? The rover K series can last well (will a proper head gasket) and that was designed in Birmingham !

26-07-13, 08:40 AM	#9
Phil Jameson 4 ring whore! Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Wigan Posts: 2,432	I'm pretty sure that the weight saving was 22kg which may not seem much but given its position in relation to the front axle would have been noticeable. I know Roger has had considerable experience on this matter as seen in his previous post on here.