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Old 04-02-20, 10:17 AM   #1
Ringmaster
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Greetings folks,

I see the government has announced they are bringing forward to 2035 the date by which the sale of all new petrol/diesel cars will be banned. They have also upset the car industry by deciding to include hybrids too.

I've accepted the fact that electric vehicles are inevitable, but I assumed the presence of hybrids would mean petrol would still be available for those of us with older cars. Now I'm not so sure. Even though 'classic' vehicles account for less than 0.7% of UK registered vehicles I sense a degree of hysteria creeping in to mainstream thinking.

I recently had a conversation with a colleague who loves his 25 year old, knackered BMW 7 series (claims he would restore it if he wins the lotto) and is now convinced that all fossil fuel vehicles should be banned, even classics that may be driven just once a month.

There seems to be a fledgling trend of owners converting their classics to electric, but that remains an expensive option. I just hope balanced decisions begin to prevail so that the classic movement can survive. There is already a danger of the mechanical skills needed to maintain conventional vehicles not being learned by the younger generation. I dread to think what will happen once everything goes electric.
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Old 04-02-20, 12:39 PM   #2
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I will be more impressed on how they intend to upgrade the infrastructure to cope.

I believe we at present only produce 5% over capacity at the moment on the grids, guess we just buy more in.

2 cases a few months ago of service heads going pop, admittedly old service on domestic but not published findings was increased load on service due to domestic AC, heat source pumps and the number of EV in area, obviously all unconfirmed.

We may have trouble getting petrol but imaging coming out to your EV and finding you only have half charge over night because whoever monitors this and sets the parameters says there was just too much demand in that area for the amount on charge, so " we just turned yours down a bit"

I wonder what will happen to the price of second hand cars as many folks wont be able to invest in a brand new lectric car.
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Old 04-02-20, 01:25 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davids View Post
I will be more impressed on how they intend to upgrade the infrastructure to cope.

I believe we at present only produce 5% over capacity at the moment on the grids, guess we just buy more in.

2 cases a few months ago of service heads going pop, admittedly old service on domestic but not published findings was increased load on service due to domestic AC, heat source pumps and the number of EV in area, obviously all unconfirmed.

We may have trouble getting petrol but imaging coming out to your EV and finding you only have half charge over night because whoever monitors this and sets the parameters says there was just too much demand in that area for the amount on charge, so " we just turned yours down a bit"

I wonder what will happen to the price of second hand cars as many folks wont be able to invest in a brand new lectric car.
It's been calculated that if all the current (no pun) vehicles changed to EV we would need six new power stations to meet demand, to buy more in as you say, we would have to buy via the French interconnectors (if they have spare capacity) then we need to install new power cables to every street in every town and to do that we then have to buy 1000s of tons of copper from china.
We have managed to order and build ONE power station in the last ten years
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Old 04-02-20, 01:48 PM   #4
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Hydrogen fuel cells anyone?
Infrastructure already exists-convert petrol garages to hydrogen garages.

No range anxiety,
No extra cables
no extra request to buy Euro electricity-which would be in demand for European leccy cars anyway...
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Old 04-02-20, 02:00 PM   #5
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I imagined something like a series of petrol/diesel pumps scattered across the counties, probably run by the County Council, for those who need the fuels occasionally...

Yes, the potential cost of preparing the infrastructure is eye watering, even if the estimates remain accurate. Just look at the cost of smart meters so far, all paid for by Joe public one way or the other.

I've recently read about attempts to take CO2 out of the atmosphere and turn it into a solid. The problem has mainly been how slow the process is and complexity of the reactions. I think it was Nottingham University who have found a way to speed up a way of turning the carbon into a solid state when injected into the ground. I can't find the article but here is another which gives you an idea.. Sounds like the perfect solution

https://www.sciencealert.com/a-new-w...global-warming
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Old 04-02-20, 02:33 PM   #6
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Hydrogen is one answer but it is costly to extract, and uses electricity to extract, other ways available as well though.

Problem with hydrogen is, old chemistry cells working here, is that you get less bang for your buck, so you need loads and loads of hydrogen to match the amount of petrol.

Transportation costs are high as you need pipe lines for central production to distribution or you need high cost extraction in many local areas which isn't cost effective to cut the distribution costs.

Also in reality where you petrol tank was is now a bomb, expansion of gasses on ignition etc.

One good method of extraction of hydrogen is by using electricity, we don't have enough or wont have enough to cope with EV in the future, need more power stations to either produce hydrogen to to power EV, sort of a vicious loop.

I'm not sure what the real answer is as from an engineers view I don't see any sustainable form of energy out there. Lithium for batteries at the moment isn't a financial viable option to recycle, and the impact on the environment is dreadful mining lithium, don't hear the greenies complaining about that do we, also cobalt, not a lot around and a dreadful stuff to deal with, again I'm sure if the mass extinction lot saw the real dangers of that they would be asking for the banning of batteries.

Perhaps Elon Musk may do what he is setting out to do and find alternative minerals in other space
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Old 04-02-20, 03:47 PM   #7
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Lithium for batteries at the moment isn't a financial viable option to recycle, and the impact on the environment is dreadful mining lithium, don't hear the greenies complaining about that do we, also cobalt, not a lot around and a dreadful stuff to deal with, again I'm sure if the mass extinction lot saw the real dangers of that they would be asking for the banning of batteries.
Exactly this, the amount of destruction on the sea bed to extract this stuff is way of the scale as well as land mining the stuff. Yet no body is talking about it. Its on Fb just not on the Eu funded very left wing mainstream tv. No surprise there then!

We've been here before where Europe insisted on pushing diesel, look where that got us, now they're pushing Ev, when will they ever learn!

Personally i don't think they've thought it through, it's all a knee jerk reaction. Great their trying to do something about Co2 emissions, but they're throwing the baby out with the bath water.

The car industry has been able make petrol cars so efficient now there really is no need for dirty diesel cars.

Unless they can give us Ev with little to no environmental impact they should carry on developing the internal combustion engine so we can carry on as we are, doing our bit to help.

I think we produce 1% of Co2 world polution, so why are we going to change our lives with a massive upheaval for virtually no overall affect on the world! It will only work if the rest of the world wants to follow suit , sadly it looks like India China and America the main polluters by far are having none of it.
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Old 04-02-20, 04:11 PM   #8
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Environmental plans are all well and good. Tax the working man, tell car owners they are killing the planet... yes let's have a go at people flying for work or a holiday, an additional environmental tax and yet.. *draws breath *.. and I quote:

"Shipping produces more carbon emissions than most countries and pollutes the oceans. Will slowing vessels or making them electric do enough? Mark Piesing (iNewspaper) reports.
Every day the clothes, tech and toys that fill the shelves in our shopping centres seem to arrive there by magic. In fact, about nine out of 10 items are shipped halfway around the world on board some of the biggest and dirtiest machines on the planet.

It has been estimated that just one of these container ships, the length of around six football pitches, can produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars. The emissions from 15 of these mega-ships match those from all the cars in the world. And if the shipping industry were a country, it would be ranked between Germany and Japan as the sixth-largest contributor to global CO2 emissions".

And the subsidies handed out to these companies is unreal...
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Old 04-02-20, 04:15 PM   #9
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Example. 1 container ship, the Emma Maersk. Its engine consumes 1,660gal of heavy fuel oil an hour!
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Old 04-02-20, 04:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Blight View Post
Environmental plans are all well and good. Tax the working man, tell car owners they are killing the planet... yes let's have a go at people flying for work or a holiday, an additional environmental tax and yet.. *draws breath *.. and I quote:

"Shipping produces more carbon emissions than most countries and pollutes the oceans. Will slowing vessels or making them electric do enough? Mark Piesing (iNewspaper) reports.
Every day the clothes, tech and toys that fill the shelves in our shopping centres seem to arrive there by magic. In fact, about nine out of 10 items are shipped halfway around the world on board some of the biggest and dirtiest machines on the planet.

It has been estimated that just one of these container ships, the length of around six football pitches, can produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars. The emissions from 15 of these mega-ships match those from all the cars in the world. And if the shipping industry were a country, it would be ranked between Germany and Japan as the sixth-largest contributor to global CO2 emissions".

And the subsidies handed out to these companies is unreal...
Very interesting. I knew ships were big polluters, but not to this scale.
Why isn't this kind of thing highlighted by the anti CO2 lobby?
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