fuel pump relay?

teo 100 q · 26-04-12, 08:44 AM

Hi to everyone i bought a donner 200 audi car with KG engine but is missing the fuel pump relay and i am trying to find the appropriate fuel pump relay in order to start the engine because is missing from the car. Does anyone know the OEM number of the fuel pump relay?
Thank you..

Blackrat · 26-04-12, 08:57 AM

Hi
I scrapped a 200q last year and retained all the relays
I believe it's the one with the fuse on top
I will have it anyway
Let me dig them out and I will get back to you
If I have the right one you can have it, just pay the postage
Cheers

Roger Galvin · 26-04-12, 09:14 AM

ETKA refers to the fuel pump relay for a KG engined 200 as being 8A0 951 253. This is undoubtedly a supercession number rather than the original. The late (1B) engined cars carried the 443 951 253L with the open fuse holder in the top. As the onborad diagnostic for an (KG) 200 ran through the idle/WOT switches and used the engine manageemnt light and rev counter to record faults I am unconvinced that the later number is correct or the right part. Safest way is to get a subscriber who physically has one of these that goes to pop the fuse box lid and double check the part number of the relay in position 10 and whether it has the open fuse holder connection.

Alternatively stuff 12 volts from the permanent live at the hazard warning lights down the wrie to the fuel pump and that might at least get it running as a temporary measure.

Roger Galvin
Technical Secretary, qOC
quattro Workshop

Blackrat · 26-04-12, 09:27 AM

In that case I havnt got that for some strange reason
The one with the fuse on top is for the ABS
I will keep digging just in case

ovalking · 26-04-12, 10:03 AM

Don't know if the fuse topped relay is different but...
You can replace the relay with a jumper wire on my 100 to get the fuel pump to run. I just put it across the the sockets where the large relay pins go. It should not be left like this without the engine running.

teo 100 q · 26-04-12, 10:13 AM

wow very fast replying !!thank you both of you guys ! I tryied to start the ingine without the relay , i connect the fuel pump straight to the battery in order to feed with fuel continiously and i crank the engine but nothing.Does the relay effects on timming or on spark?

Roger Galvin · 26-04-12, 10:58 AM

Asking the obvious, when you drive the pump direct a) can you hear it running b) is there fuel flow to the metering head? Coz if neither of these is happening you've got no fuel pressure and therefore the chances of it going are slim!!

Roger Galvin
Technical Secretary, qOC
quattro Workshop

teo 100 q · 26-04-12, 02:14 PM

Dear Roger I hear the pump and also I have pressure in metering head but still doesn'tstart I was wondering if the missing relay communicates with the ecu and because it's missing doesn'tgetting started ? Sorry for my english if it's not good...

Roger Galvin · 26-04-12, 04:57 PM

Teo, not a question of English, just needed to know that the basics were working.

The fuel injection is mechanical, i.e if you have fuel pressure and lift the air mass sensor plate there should be fuel delivery to the injector, it has no bearing on the ECU or timing, hence the title continuous injection system (CIS).

So what we don't know is whether there is any fuel delivery at the injectors, no 2 is simplest to extract. Assuming there is fuel spraying when the engine is turning over, and assuming the car is delivering sparks the conclusion has to be that it is flooded. Disconnect the cold start valve.

Take out all five plugs, remove the fuel pump fuse, so that no more fuel is delivered and turn the engine over, for a few minutes to expel the excess fuel. Dry the plugs and put only one or two back in, and reconnect the approprite lead with still no fuel being delivered turn it over again, hopefully it will pop and bang and fart whilst it burns off and expels more excess fuel. Only when it stops igniting fuel put another couple of plugs back in. Now spin it again to clear a couple more cylinders. Finally replace the fifth spark plug.

Replace the fuel pump fuse, NOT the cold start valve we don't want to flood it again. Hopefully it will gradually fire up, if it floods again wind the mixture screw anticlockwise to zero, and then start the above proceedure again. When all cylinders are again clear, wind the mixture screw clockwise one turn at a time after each turn attempt to start the engine, eventually (usually 10 or 11 turns) some fuel will start to be delivered, and the engine should attempt to run. Then proceed one quarter turn at a time until sufficient fuel is delivered for the engine to maintain idle.

DO NOT rev the engine with the 3mm allen key adjuster in place you will damage the air mass sensor and possibly the metering head, remove the tool before any attempt to rev the engine. When, and if, it eventually starts you will need a CO meter to set the mixture to 1% +/- 0.2% to be within factory specification.

All the above assumes that the timing is right i.e we are trying to send a spark at the appropriate time!

Roger Galvin
Technical Secretary, qOC
quattro Workshop

msh · 26-04-12, 05:19 PM

The basic principles are fine, however sometimes happens something that can't be explained by theory. Some time ago I had a problem with my NG - the fuel pump sometimes didn't turned on and it was impossible to start engine, even with fuel pump manually turned on - and yes, there was spark and injection ECU was working as it should. I changed the ICU and I hope the problem won't happen again.

About that relay - I guess any fuel pump relay, which fits description "gray audi fuel pump relay with empty place for fuse on top" will do the trick. After all, it's not the question about keeping the car original, with all parts having original numbers, but just getting the engine running

26-04-12, 08:57 AM	#2
Blackrat Grown up member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Tavistock/ Devon Posts: 348	Hi I scrapped a 200q last year and retained all the relays I believe it's the one with the fuse on top I will have it anyway Let me dig them out and I will get back to you If I have the right one you can have it, just pay the postage Cheers __________________ 1982 quad light GT5 S .......92,000.. 1976 wife... mileage unknown.. in daily use

26-04-12, 09:27 AM	#4
Blackrat Grown up member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Tavistock/ Devon Posts: 348	In that case I havnt got that for some strange reason The one with the fuse on top is for the ABS I will keep digging just in case __________________ 1982 quad light GT5 S .......92,000.. 1976 wife... mileage unknown.. in daily use

26-04-12, 09:14 AM	#3
Roger Galvin Grown up member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 239	ETKA refers to the fuel pump relay for a KG engined 200 as being 8A0 951 253. This is undoubtedly a supercession number rather than the original. The late (1B) engined cars carried the 443 951 253L with the open fuse holder in the top. As the onborad diagnostic for an (KG) 200 ran through the idle/WOT switches and used the engine manageemnt light and rev counter to record faults I am unconvinced that the later number is correct or the right part. Safest way is to get a subscriber who physically has one of these that goes to pop the fuse box lid and double check the part number of the relay in position 10 and whether it has the open fuse holder connection. Alternatively stuff 12 volts from the permanent live at the hazard warning lights down the wrie to the fuel pump and that might at least get it running as a temporary measure. Roger Galvin Technical Secretary, qOC quattro Workshop

26-04-12, 10:03 AM	#5
ovalking Grown up member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Ipswich Posts: 271	Don't know if the fuse topped relay is different but... You can replace the relay with a jumper wire on my 100 to get the fuel pump to run. I just put it across the the sockets where the large relay pins go. It should not be left like this without the engine running.

26-04-12, 10:13 AM	#6
teo 100 q Newbie! Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Drama (Greece) Posts: 19	wow very fast replying !!thank you both of you guys ! I tryied to start the ingine without the relay , i connect the fuel pump straight to the battery in order to feed with fuel continiously and i crank the engine but nothing.Does the relay effects on timming or on spark?

26-04-12, 10:58 AM	#7
Roger Galvin Grown up member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 239	Asking the obvious, when you drive the pump direct a) can you hear it running b) is there fuel flow to the metering head? Coz if neither of these is happening you've got no fuel pressure and therefore the chances of it going are slim!! Roger Galvin Technical Secretary, qOC quattro Workshop

26-04-12, 02:14 PM	#8
teo 100 q Newbie! Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Drama (Greece) Posts: 19	Dear Roger I hear the pump and also I have pressure in metering head but still doesn'tstart I was wondering if the missing relay communicates with the ecu and because it's missing doesn'tgetting started ? Sorry for my english if it's not good...

26-04-12, 04:57 PM	#9
Roger Galvin Grown up member Classic Audi Club Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 239	Teo, not a question of English, just needed to know that the basics were working. The fuel injection is mechanical, i.e if you have fuel pressure and lift the air mass sensor plate there should be fuel delivery to the injector, it has no bearing on the ECU or timing, hence the title continuous injection system (CIS). So what we don't know is whether there is any fuel delivery at the injectors, no 2 is simplest to extract. Assuming there is fuel spraying when the engine is turning over, and assuming the car is delivering sparks the conclusion has to be that it is flooded. Disconnect the cold start valve. Take out all five plugs, remove the fuel pump fuse, so that no more fuel is delivered and turn the engine over, for a few minutes to expel the excess fuel. Dry the plugs and put only one or two back in, and reconnect the approprite lead with still no fuel being delivered turn it over again, hopefully it will pop and bang and fart whilst it burns off and expels more excess fuel. Only when it stops igniting fuel put another couple of plugs back in. Now spin it again to clear a couple more cylinders. Finally replace the fifth spark plug. Replace the fuel pump fuse, NOT the cold start valve we don't want to flood it again. Hopefully it will gradually fire up, if it floods again wind the mixture screw anticlockwise to zero, and then start the above proceedure again. When all cylinders are again clear, wind the mixture screw clockwise one turn at a time after each turn attempt to start the engine, eventually (usually 10 or 11 turns) some fuel will start to be delivered, and the engine should attempt to run. Then proceed one quarter turn at a time until sufficient fuel is delivered for the engine to maintain idle. DO NOT rev the engine with the 3mm allen key adjuster in place you will damage the air mass sensor and possibly the metering head, remove the tool before any attempt to rev the engine. When, and if, it eventually starts you will need a CO meter to set the mixture to 1% +/- 0.2% to be within factory specification. All the above assumes that the timing is right i.e we are trying to send a spark at the appropriate time! Roger Galvin Technical Secretary, qOC quattro Workshop

26-04-12, 05:19 PM	#10
msh 4 ring whore! Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Rucava, Latvija Posts: 3,816	The basic principles are fine, however sometimes happens something that can't be explained by theory. Some time ago I had a problem with my NG - the fuel pump sometimes didn't turned on and it was impossible to start engine, even with fuel pump manually turned on - and yes, there was spark and injection ECU was working as it should. I changed the ICU and I hope the problem won't happen again. About that relay - I guess any fuel pump relay, which fits description "gray audi fuel pump relay with empty place for fuse on top" will do the trick. After all, it's not the question about keeping the car original, with all parts having original numbers, but just getting the engine running